What the best guns to have
 

when the sh.t hit the fan for your home

Re: What the best guns to have
 

A couple M-Forgeries and a pair of very good operators can hold off a determined group but will likely be burned alive.

Re: What the best guns to have
 

Enough said....

http://www.defensereview.com/stories...20Shotgun).jpg

Re: What the best guns to have
 

Ummm? Right, John Wayne always wins eh?

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if you do not have any then it is a 12 gauge shotgun. mossberg 500 or remington 870 or winchester 1300.

Re: What the best guns to have
 

start with one of each, then get spares of the ones you like best.

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shotgun of your choice with the shortest LEGAL barrel for in-house maneuvering

Re: What the best guns to have
 

any recommendations for a 'not too expensive' semi auto 12 gauge?

And is it better to get one that handles 3 inch shells?

Re: What the best guns to have
 

Mossberg, yes a three inch BUT, a shotgun is both heavy and unwieldy nevermind the ammo weight.

A normal 12 yr old (and younger) can handle an AR with thirty rounds on board.

Re: What the best guns to have
 

If I could only have one to start with? That is a tough call it would not be a shotgun. Pistol most likely. 9mm or .45 semi auto. Simply because when "TSHTF" your not going to be in your bunker most likely and the pistol can easily go where you go concealed whereas a shotgun or rifle will not. Then after that it is kind of a tough call. It is nice to have something in .223/5.56 NATO or in .308 or maybe pick up a 7.62x39 chambered rifle, there is quite a lot of this ammo floating around as well. On the survivalist side tho you can't beat a .22 for hunting small game. To survive it is much easier to hunt and clean smaller game than larger animals and your not going to want to go shooting a rabbit with your .308 or your AR either. A shotgun can fill this role somewhat as well, but it depends on what you like to shoot.

Re: What the best guns to have
 

semiauto that is reliable and cheap,

then you want Saiga-12

http://forum.saiga-12.com

Re: What the best guns to have
 

+1 for that.

If you can find one.

Re: What the best guns to have
 

-Galil AR (with an acog), ARM (with a Nimrod), or MR (Red dotted)
-any XD (with an XML light) or Glock (I like the XD better and even though both are excellent, the XD is better :yes:)
-Remington 870 Marine model shotgun
-Barrett semi auto

Re: What the best guns to have
 

Handgun first - .45
Shotgun second - 12 ga
Fighting Rifle thrid - 7.62 x 39 - SKS or AK

That's the order I would have, and ALL are a must have.

If TSHTF, you will need to carry everywhere you go. ALWAYS (handgun first!)

Learn to shoot all! Practice! Buy lots of ammo, all you can. Recommend 2,000 rounds per gun.

Re: What the best guns to have
 

The best one to have when SHTF, is the most easily operated and accessable ones. None of that safety button BS, pull the trigger and get to work! Give me a glock any day of the week, because it has 3 safeties and is not going to fire unless you pull the trigger.

Unless you are extremely skilled and well versed and trained in your firearm, during a serious SHTF scenario, your fine motor skills are out the window, and fumbling with a safety switch is not going to happen, because your body is going to be focusing on the threat.

Shotguns are great home defense though as well, but give me a glock with 16 rounds ready to fire and I guarantee that is enough for ME to stop the threat.

Train yourself on your weapon, because your life depends on it.

Re: What the best guns to have
 

An AK47 for each person with plenty of full 30rd magazines.

Re: What the best guns to have
 

.357 mag revolver, short barrel, will eat any .38 ammo
stubby 12 gauge, see above
.22 rifle, any form
AK-47's and AR-15's are nice but a solid .308 is way better, so why not have many of each?

Re: What the best guns to have
 

Flinch think this trick question !

Answer: Best gun is one in hand and go bang when shtf !

Flinch have bird gun.
Flinch have deer gun.
Flinch have squirrel gun.
Flinch have defense gun.
Flinch have zombie gun too !

Different gun for different occasion. :emotions16:

Re: What the best guns to have
 

Rifle -- Top tier AR15 made by Colt, LMT, Noveske
pistol -- Glock 17/19

Re: What the best guns to have
 

Re: What the best guns to have
 

Re: What the best guns to have
 

If you're sure it's for in-home use only, then I like a 12 ga shotgun as first choice. If you can handle the kick, a light/mobile gun with a high fire rate and that can accept a variety of ammunition is ideal (for me, anyway -- something like the Benelli Super Black Eagle II).

The main reason I like a shotgun is that if you're nervous and not a professional shooter, it's a lot easier to hit your target than with a rifle or pistol. I think there's also an intimidation factor there that most pistols just don't quite have. Another thing I like is that it can do double-duty as a hunting gun. Birds are usually a lot more plentiful and easier to hunt than deer, etc, esp. in the city, and a shotgun is ideal for that.

Lots of practice and ammo, as others have said, is of course important. Be sure to include practice on moving targets. Shooting at a stationary target doesn't prepare you for much other than for shooting at more stationary targets. Also, practice with the same size and type load that you would use at home -- buckshot, for example, not birdshot.

Re: What the best guns to have
 

Good, I guess they let you buy guns afterall.

Re: What the best guns to have
 

Yeah, I had the three day wait.

Hopefully they just grow dusty on a shelf and are backup insurance against uncertain times, like gold itself. Time will tell.

Hope for peace, but prepare for the storm... the first rain drops are just starting to fall.

and face it, you know it's gonna get hairy, there are just too many damn sheep out there who are unprepared...

Re: What the best guns to have
 

What mtnman said.

Re: What the best guns to have
 

That's the wrong question to ask; everybody has a different answer, and nobody can explain why their answer is right but they are convinced they are right.

You need three weapons for home defense. HERE is a site that explains what they are and why. You don't have to agree with this fellow, lots of people don't, but at least he offers some points to consider. Then go out and buy whatever you decide you like.

Re: What the best guns to have
 

For immediate protection I've got a Bushmaster M4gery, a Sig P226, an FN 5.7 and a Saiga 12ga shotgun. Dozens of unloaded guns stored elsewhere. The FN 5.7 is especially useful for penetrating doors and walls.

Re: What the best guns to have
 

After TSHTF, if it becomes TEOTWAWKI, the best guns will be those for which ammo is available. It can't be ruled out that the government would just ban all ammo sales. So a list of the most desirable guns would echo the list of most popular cartridges before the crash. In case you have to buy or trade for black market ammo. On that basis, what would be most likely to be available would be the .22LR, 30-06, .270, and the old 30-30. The best handgun calibers would be .22LR, 9mm, and the .357/.38. In that exact order. The same as the order of total sales in the USA. Not my preferred list either, but if that's the only thing obtainable under-the-counter, well...that changes things. The baddest black rifle with the big magazine and night-vision scope will be worthless if you can't buy any ammo to feed it. Something to think about.

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Re: What the best guns to have
 

Shotgun Home Defense Ammunition

For home defense, a shotgun is superior to a handgun in terms of being able to stop a violent intruder as quickly as possible. A reliable, well-made, pump-action shotgun can usually be purchased for less than the cost of a handgun of comparable quality. Also, inexpensive birdshot ammunition, typically used for training applications, is about three-fourths the cost, round for round, of comparable handgun ammunition.

Most people typically choose a shotgun for home defense for one of three general reasons: 1) to minimize wall penetration to reduce the danger to innocent third parties in case of a missed shot, 2) to maximize wound trauma to stop a vicious assailant as quickly as possible, or 3) because a shotgun does not require as much skill as a handgun to put lead on target.

If you're considering a shotgun for home defense or already have one, we suggest you give some serious thought to attending a one or two day "defensive shotgun" training course from a reputable shooting school. (We have a few schools listed on our Links page.) It's one thing to be armed with a well-equipped, high-tech shotgun and premium personal defense ammunition, but if you're not a skilled shotgun operator, you're the weakest link in your last-ditch home defense weapon system.

Shotgun Pellet Wound Ballistics
A shotgun pellet produces wound trauma by crushing the tissue it comes into direct contact with as it penetrates. In order to produce wound trauma that will be effective in quickly stopping an attacker, the pellets must penetrate his body deeply enough to be able to pass through a vital cardiovascular structure and cause rapid fatal hemorrhage to quickly deprive the brain of oxygenated blood needed to maintain consciousness.

Shotgun pellets are classified into two general categories: 1) birdshot, of which individual pellets are typically less than .20 caliber in diameter, and 2) buckshot, which varies in diameter from .24 caliber to .36 caliber.

Table 1 and Table 2 list nominal size and weight information about lead birdshot and buckshot, respectively.

Table 1. Lead Birdshot

Shot
Number Pellet Diameter
(Inches) Average Pellet
Weight (Grains) Approximate # of
Pellets per Ounce
12 .05 .18 2385
11 .06 .25 1750
9 .08 .75 585
8 1/2 .085 .88 485
8 .09 1.07 410
7 1/2 .095 1.25 350
6 .11 1.95 225
5 .12 2.58 170
4 .13 3.24 135
2 .15 4.86 90
BB .18 8.75 50

Table 2. Lead Buckshot

Shot
Number Pellet Diameter
(Inches) Average Pellet
Weight (Grains)
4 .24 20.6
3 .25 23.4
2 .27 29.4
1 .30 40.0
0 .32 48.3
00 .33 53.8
000 .36 68.0

Birdshot, because of its small size, does not have the mass and sectional density to penetrate deeply enough to reliably reach and damage critical blood distribution organs. Although birdshot can destroy a great volume of tissue at close range, the permanent crush cavity is usually less than 6 inches deep, and this is not deep enough to reliably include the heart or great blood vessels of the abdomen. A gruesome, shallow wound in the torso does not guarantee a quick stop, especially if the bad guy is chemically intoxicated or psychotic. If the tissue crushed by the pellets does not include a vital cardiovascular structure there's no reason for it to be an effective wound.

Many people load their shotguns with birdshot, usually #6 shot or smaller, to minimize interior wall penetration. Number 6 lead birdshot, when propelled at 1300 fps, has a maximum penetration depth potential of about 5 inches in standard ordnance gelatin. Not all of the pellets penetrate this deeply however; most of the shot will penetrate about 4 inches.

Federal Personal Defense Shotshell
Federal Cartridge Company offers reduced recoil Personal Defense Shotshells in 12 gauge and 20 gauge. Both are loaded with #2 lead birdshot. According to Federal's 1998 catalog, the shotshells propel their pellet payloads at a velocity of 1140 fps.

(Note: We tested terminal performance of the 12 gauge Federal Personal Defense Shotshell, and published our results in Tactical Briefs, January 1999. Click here to read our product review.)

12 Gauge Shotshell Ammunition
For personal defense and law enforcement applications, the International Wound Ballistics Association advocates number 1 buckshot as being superior to all other buckshot sizes.

Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 �-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.

In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.

For home defense applications a standard velocity 2 �-inch #1 buck shotshell (16 pellet payload) from Federal, Remington or Winchester is your best choice. We feel the Federal Classic 2 �-inch #1 buck load (F127) is slightly better than the same loads offered by Remington and Winchester. The Federal shotshell uses both a plastic shot cup and granulated plastic shot buffer to minimize post-ignition pellet deformation, whereas the Remington and Winchester loads do not.

Second best choice is Winchester's 2 �-inch Magnum #1 buck shotshell, which is loaded with 20 pieces of copper-plated, buffered, hardened lead #1 buckshot. For those of you who are concerned about a tight shot pattern, this shotshell will probably give you the best patterning results in number 1 buck. This load may not be a good choice for those who are recoil sensitive.

Third choice is any standard or reduced recoil 2 �-inch #00 lead buckshot load from Winchester, Remington or Federal.

If you choose a reduced recoil load or any load containing hardened Magnum #00 buckshot you increase the risk of over-penetration because these innovations assist in maintaining pellet shape integrity. Round pellets have better sectional density for deeper penetration than deformed pellets.

Fourth choice is any 2 �-inch Magnum shotshell that is loaded with hardened, plated and buffered #4 buckshot. The Magnum cartridge has the lowest velocity, and the lower velocity will help to minimize pellet deformation on impact. The hardened buckshot and buffering granules also help to minimize pellet deformation too. These three innovations help to maximize pellet penetration. Number 4 hardened buckshot is a marginal performer. Some of the hardened buckshot will penetrate at least 12 inches deep and some will not.

20 Gauge Shotshell Ammunition Recommendations
We're unaware of any ammunition company who offers a 20 gauge shotshell that is loaded with #1 buckshot. The largest shot size commercially available that we know of is number 2 buck.

From a strict wound ballistics standpoint, we feel the Federal Classic 3-inch 20 gauge Magnum number 2 buckshot cartridge is the best choice. It contains 18 pellets of number 2 buckshot in a plastic shotcup with granulated plastic shot buffer.

However, the Federal Classic load might produce too much recoil for some people. Given this consideration, Remington's Premier Buckshot 2 �-inch 20 gauge number 3 buckshot cartridge is the next best choice. This load contains 20 pieces of nickel-plated, hardened lead shot that is buffered to reduce pellet deformation from post ignition acceleration and terminal impact. The Remington buckshot load will probably produce the tightest shot patterns in 20 gauge shotguns.

Third place is Winchester's 3-inch 20 gauge Magnum number 3 buckshot cartridge, which contains 24 pieces of buffered, copper-plated, hardened lead shot.

Shotgun Slugs, Flechettes and Exotic Ammunition for Home Defense?
Unless you live on acreage and anticipate engaging bad guys at distances beyond 25 yards, shotgun slugs are not a good choice for home defense, because of their enormous capability to over-penetrate a human body and common building materials.

Some shotgun cartridges are loaded with flechettes. These are small, steel, pointed dart-like projectiles with aft stabilization fins, and are commonly referred to as "nails with tails." The low cross sectional area of a single flechette, combined with the small amount of flechettes that can be loaded into a shotshell, makes them an inferior choice for home defense when compared to buckshot.

Also, according to Second Chance Body Armor Company, flechettes are not effective against soft body armor, if this is a particular mission requirement for your ammunition. Steel shot also is ineffective against soft body armor.

There are other various exotic shotshells that are best classified as gimmicks. These include rubber buckshot, bean bags, steel washers, rock salt, "Dragon's Breath," bird bombs, ceramic slugs, "bolo" projectiles and so on. The efficacy of these loads is questionable at best, and we advise you to avoid them altogether for this simple reason.

Summary
With the right load, a shotgun can be very effective in quickly stopping the deadly violence being perpetrated by a criminal who's invaded your home.

If you're worried that a missed shot might penetrate through a wall and harm others, load your shotgun so that the first one or two cartridges to be fired is number 6 or smaller birdshot, followed by standard lead #1 buckshot (12 gauge) or #3 buckshot (20 gauge). If your first shot misses, the birdshot is less likely to endanger innocent lives outside the room. If your first shot fails to stop the attacker, you can immediately follow-up with more potent ammunition.

With birdshot you are wise to keep in mind that your gunfire has the potential to NOT PRODUCE an effective wound. Do not expect birdshot to have any decisive effect.

Number 1 buckshot has the potential to produce more effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck, without the accompanying risk of over-penetration. The IWBA believes, with very good reason, that number 1 buckshot is the shotshell load of choice for quickly stopping deadly criminal violence.

End Notes
The term "Magnum" when applied to shotshells means "more shot." Magnum shotshells usually propel their pellets at a lower velocity than a standard shotshell.

Shotgun barrel length does not affect our shotshell recommendions.

References
Cotey, Gus J.: "Number 1 Buckshot, the Number 1 Choice." Wound Ballistics Review, 2(4), 10-18, 1996.

MacPherson, Duncan: "Technical Comment on Buckshot Loads." Wound Ballistics Review, 2(4), 19-21, 1996.

MacPherson, Duncan: Bullet Penetration, Ballistic Publications, El Segundo, California, 1994.

DiMaio, Vincent J.M.: Gunshot Wounds, Elsevier Science Publishing Co., Inc., New York, New York, 1985, pp. 163-208.


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Re: What the best guns to have
 

Good article. I mostly agree with the author. I thought the following paragraphs were particularly relevant to the question in the OP:

I disagree with the author about the type of pistol to use. I've used a lot of different pistols, and for me, the .45 stands head-and-shoulders above the rest, particularly the Colt Combat Elite and similar single-action pistols. There are some very good revolvers (I had a Colt Python once that was one of the best pistols I've ever used), but I still prefer the .45. One issue for me is that no matter how well trained you are, if you're suddenly in a life-and-death situation at close range, you will be under considerable stress, and training and practice has a way of being forgotten. Stopping power and a few extra rounds can help make the difference.

Also, I would add one more item to the must-have list of self-defense weapons: a good knife. That old saying about "not bringing a knife to a gun fight" couldn't be more wrong. A knife is a must-have in a gun fight. Bullets often don't kill or disable instantly; an assailant could eventually die, but still inflict a lot of damage before he falls. This is especially important at close range of course; a knife can end a conflict much faster than a poorly-placed gun shot. It's also a key last-resort fallback in case you run out of ammo.

Re: What the best guns to have
 

If I was starting out and had plenty of coin, I would buy a new or CPO SIG P226 9mm, and an FAL. If cash was tighter, I would get a Berretta 92F and an AK. Later on I would buy a Mossberg Maverick, and a Marlin .22 for small game hunting.

For lady friends or wives, I would go with an East German Makarov($250), and an AK.

As for Glocks, I am a little concerned with the long term outgassing of the polymer frame, making it brittle and more likely to crack after 20 years or so. I've heard that for $50 Glock takes in first Gen. frames from the 80's and replaces them with new.


SIG P226 9mm $500-600 Certified pre-owned, $750-900 new

Beretta 92F 9mm $350-450 used, $600 new

FAL .308 (7.62x51) $700-1000 used,Imbel,DSA,or Entreprise, $1200-2000 new DSA or Entreprise

AK (7.62x39) $450-650 Romanian, E German, or Bulgarian, AZ Extreme Arms or Arizona Response System are excellent builders

.22 bolt action Marlin $250

Re: What the best guns to have
 

I have thousands of rounds of .223 and 9mm...I'd likely be killed before I went through the first hundred or so.

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BushMaster MK44, anything else is just too small.

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/fu...ter/2319112199

Re: What the best guns to have
 

My personal favorite is the
http://www.corpgame.com/images/arm%20cannon%20copy.jpg

The installation is a bit of a pain but it's well worth it :emotions16: